It’s really revolting how people don’t care about what’s right and wrong anymore. They only care whether it fits their narrative. The way women are treated in Muslim culture should be unacceptable to anyone who aspires to the human values of fairness, compassion and rationality.
Rape is a “construct” of the West, not the East—or Middle East. The two shall never meet on this point. Because of this and a dozen other points of culture, acceptance of such “refugees” is suicidal to the West. Not really that difficult to understand. What is difficult to understand is why there are so many willing to sacrifice their society built upon millennia of years to such a pernicious idea of “equality” of all races and cultures thereof.
When I was working my way through college in 1980, the collection of Iranian men stuck in the US after the fall of the Shah of Iran made itself clear to me. I worked convention breakfasts in Milwaukee hotels as a member of the AFL-CIO. I was married, wore a ring, but working, as most American women do, while attending college. These men noticed my ring and starting dissing my husband, who, according to them, was weak and immoral to let his wife out to earn a paycheck. I started making sure I was near the older African-American hotel waiters, for my safety. These Iranians had started touching my strawberry-blonde hair when I was close enough and had a coffee pot or water pitcher in my hands. It was no use trying to explain they have taken refuge in a different culture.
Wow I worked for a company owned and controlled by Iranian men and never ran into this even once. These were men who chose to immigrate to the US before or after the fall of the Shah. Perhaps they were fully assimilated into our culture/society but nothing but professionalism from these men.
Good to know! I think these were guys who grew up rich in Teheran and got stuck here, suddenly had to work. They're all in their 70s now. I also think in that situation, I was low status, as a woman working as a waitress in hotels. I wasn't in an office.
Yeah I was thinking after I wrote that I recalled my spouse talking about some Iranians who he met with (same time frame) who required their wives eat in a separate room. So all different as any people are 😊 The ones I worked with were pretty westernized and very supportive of capitalism.
This had more to do with the job you had than your sex. You were perceived as “poor, working class”, and thus lacking in any power. If your husband did not have enough money to keep you from working in such a “lowly position”, the thinking goes, then he didn’t have enough money to protect you.
You were “lower class”, and thus available to demean.
I was an attorney living in Beverly Hills, & dealt with many Iranian men who were nothing but gracious and sophisticated in Western manners.
The housekeepers and waitresses had a different experience.
Status. We all want it. We all chase it. Immigrants have none, young male immigrants the least, so impulsive acts of status-chasing are always going to be a problem. Add some toxic attitudes around women as property and it all fits. Ignoring the problem doesn't fix it. Sweden has seen a right wing voting shift because their liberal politicians did the Fillipovic thing, called it "racist" to object to high crime rates among immigrant men, and stuck their heads in the sand.
although not mentioned in the article, I suspect that a significant number of the women being victimized are not white, but from the cultures where the perpetrators are from. funny how we never hear about those women
What people don’t realize is that denial of these types of problems only further radicalizes people. France may see Marine Le Pen as PM. We will get DeSantis. Italy may get even more extreme, etc.
Denying and silencing discussion, on any topic, only foments extremism.
Complicated subject, and definitely one that doesn't get the thoughtful attention it needs from any side with a political axe to grind.
The laws against rape in the western world are fairly modern. I've met poor white men who grew up in rural areas who had a bad time adapting to the social norms in liberal arts universities. The accepted thinking there argued against everything they'd been taught about gender roles and what was sexually expected and allowed. I found many of the ideas they grew up with abhorrent, but I was aware that their ideas were once consensus beliefs among white men: the culture changed for specific reasons, and areas with less access to it are changing much more slowly.
I don't believe men have any "right" to harass women, much less rape them. But whether this was considered normal or deviant and whether society would turn a blind eye to it has evolved within the last half of the twentieth century. And a lot of stuff that's presented as "that's a myth" actually isn't. I grew up hearing that most rapes were perpetuated by men that women already knew, and that date rape is the most common sort, while the "stranger hiding in the bushes" was just not a thing. Came to read later that, in refugee camps and other dangerous places, those are real risks. It's just, in a country that enforces rape laws, the people that are the most likely to be prosecuted are the ones police and juries find the most threatening and unjustifiable.
Feminism keeps trying to argue that women (should) have the right to walk around in miniskirts or naked and not worry about rape, as a counterbalance to the fact that most rape is not reported to the police and a lot of court cases where there is ambiguity about what happened are ruled in favor of men. But the reality is that in the US, a man is more likely to get away with raping someone he can plausibly claim he had consensual sex with, and he's more likely to get away with it for a host of other reasons that align with privilege. Rape charges have been much more dangerous for black men, broke men, etc. than young, white, professionals, for reasons that have more to do with political power than guilt or innocence.
What's changed is that we've stopped having a culture where society treats men as if they're across-the-board more valuable than women. Hand in hand with rape being a crime is a host of other assaults and abuses becoming crimes: men also lost the "right" in the eyes of the law to hit women, to control their access to money, and to deny them an education. These things all went together. And these are all things women won for themselves with armed struggle and political protest, in the west. Immigrants from other countries are bringing histories that don't have this. Some of them come from countries where women have prerogatives and privileges that are unknown in the west - they're not a monolith and they're not uniformly "more sexist" than westerners. But for better and worse, they've got different expectations about how men and women are supposed to behave, and they've got a lot of other reasons to have culture shock.
But these intricacies desperately need to be talked about, because when liberals want to brush the fact that nonwhites can also have a rape culture under the rug, it just pushes people who have direct experience with that into the arms of unapologetic racist rhetoric. It's treating their lives like dirty secrets, just to protect an ideology, a dogma, that is missing nuance.
You're deflecting, genius, and I didn't obfuscate anything. I was perfectly clear when I challenged a specific claim in the article, it's only empiric one, and you're not actually responding to my point. Instead you're just ignoring that and asserting the article's thesis is true anyway - without evidence (you provide no evidence for any claim, actually).
It’s about DADGUM time we stop pretending these crazed Islamic zealots are anything more than the vile, misogynistic, subhuman mongrels they are! They’re LUCKY to be able to emigrate from their god awful shitholes to OUR Western countries ! They perpetrate inhumane acts of the worst possible kind on our citizens and then our limp-wristed, cucked, guilt ridden Whites/Euros are too terrified at ‘offending’ them via prosecution much less even simple, open discussion of the truth so the madness goes on unabated! NO MORE! It’s high time we bury these semi-literate monkeys kicking them back to the Stone Age where they belong!
"In Germany, for example, asylum seekers were 12 percent of suspects in all sex crimes"
It's clearly Islamophobic to assume all Muslim suspects are guilty. Last I checked, suspects are presumed innocent. And to top it off, now YOU'RE violating western norms about justice, genius.
When one takes an “average” base rate of a trait or behavior and applies it to an “individual”, then yes it is subject to increased scrutiny and criticism. However, societal decisions are not based on such. They are based upon averages or probabilities. For example, we design air plane seats to meet the average height and weight of the population, knowing that there will be some that fall out of such “standards” and the seat will fall short of their individual requirements. We can not efficiently do otherwise. Similarly, we can justify a decision to restrict Muslim immigration from certain foreign countries as being too costly in terms of societal upheaval in any particular country. There is no right of anyone to move freely from one country to another. Just as your neighbors do no have a right to open your door and take a seat in front of your TV for a night’s worth of entertainment without your permission.
You didn't respond to my point at all. I didn't even mention that only 75% of asylum seekers are even Muslim and that crimes can have multiple suspects which is another reason comflating suspects and perpetrators is stupid.
He admits sexual assault statistics are hard to find and so this claim is really his and her ONLY empirical argument. And It's really bad because:
The propensity for mistreatment of women in Islamic cultures—according to Western standards—is a long one and well documented in many nations that have accepted such “refugees”. Sweden for example. You take a specific charge of rape and attempt to deflect through obfuscation. The simple fact is there is a culture within these communities that is foreign and at odds with the prevailing culture. There is no reason for this because there is no reason for these people to be allowed residence in the prevailing culture. That is the issue. Diversity is not a strength in these matters. It is a weakness and a cancer to the body politic of the host country.
It’s really revolting how people don’t care about what’s right and wrong anymore. They only care whether it fits their narrative. The way women are treated in Muslim culture should be unacceptable to anyone who aspires to the human values of fairness, compassion and rationality.
Rape is a “construct” of the West, not the East—or Middle East. The two shall never meet on this point. Because of this and a dozen other points of culture, acceptance of such “refugees” is suicidal to the West. Not really that difficult to understand. What is difficult to understand is why there are so many willing to sacrifice their society built upon millennia of years to such a pernicious idea of “equality” of all races and cultures thereof.
When I was working my way through college in 1980, the collection of Iranian men stuck in the US after the fall of the Shah of Iran made itself clear to me. I worked convention breakfasts in Milwaukee hotels as a member of the AFL-CIO. I was married, wore a ring, but working, as most American women do, while attending college. These men noticed my ring and starting dissing my husband, who, according to them, was weak and immoral to let his wife out to earn a paycheck. I started making sure I was near the older African-American hotel waiters, for my safety. These Iranians had started touching my strawberry-blonde hair when I was close enough and had a coffee pot or water pitcher in my hands. It was no use trying to explain they have taken refuge in a different culture.
Wow I worked for a company owned and controlled by Iranian men and never ran into this even once. These were men who chose to immigrate to the US before or after the fall of the Shah. Perhaps they were fully assimilated into our culture/society but nothing but professionalism from these men.
Good to know! I think these were guys who grew up rich in Teheran and got stuck here, suddenly had to work. They're all in their 70s now. I also think in that situation, I was low status, as a woman working as a waitress in hotels. I wasn't in an office.
Yeah I was thinking after I wrote that I recalled my spouse talking about some Iranians who he met with (same time frame) who required their wives eat in a separate room. So all different as any people are 😊 The ones I worked with were pretty westernized and very supportive of capitalism.
Or they had the Emily Post etiquette in the West course!
This had more to do with the job you had than your sex. You were perceived as “poor, working class”, and thus lacking in any power. If your husband did not have enough money to keep you from working in such a “lowly position”, the thinking goes, then he didn’t have enough money to protect you.
You were “lower class”, and thus available to demean.
I was an attorney living in Beverly Hills, & dealt with many Iranian men who were nothing but gracious and sophisticated in Western manners.
The housekeepers and waitresses had a different experience.
Status. We all want it. We all chase it. Immigrants have none, young male immigrants the least, so impulsive acts of status-chasing are always going to be a problem. Add some toxic attitudes around women as property and it all fits. Ignoring the problem doesn't fix it. Sweden has seen a right wing voting shift because their liberal politicians did the Fillipovic thing, called it "racist" to object to high crime rates among immigrant men, and stuck their heads in the sand.
although not mentioned in the article, I suspect that a significant number of the women being victimized are not white, but from the cultures where the perpetrators are from. funny how we never hear about those women
No. White women in Europe are the ones being raped and harassed.
What people don’t realize is that denial of these types of problems only further radicalizes people. France may see Marine Le Pen as PM. We will get DeSantis. Italy may get even more extreme, etc.
Denying and silencing discussion, on any topic, only foments extremism.
Yes! This! ^^^
Complicated subject, and definitely one that doesn't get the thoughtful attention it needs from any side with a political axe to grind.
The laws against rape in the western world are fairly modern. I've met poor white men who grew up in rural areas who had a bad time adapting to the social norms in liberal arts universities. The accepted thinking there argued against everything they'd been taught about gender roles and what was sexually expected and allowed. I found many of the ideas they grew up with abhorrent, but I was aware that their ideas were once consensus beliefs among white men: the culture changed for specific reasons, and areas with less access to it are changing much more slowly.
I don't believe men have any "right" to harass women, much less rape them. But whether this was considered normal or deviant and whether society would turn a blind eye to it has evolved within the last half of the twentieth century. And a lot of stuff that's presented as "that's a myth" actually isn't. I grew up hearing that most rapes were perpetuated by men that women already knew, and that date rape is the most common sort, while the "stranger hiding in the bushes" was just not a thing. Came to read later that, in refugee camps and other dangerous places, those are real risks. It's just, in a country that enforces rape laws, the people that are the most likely to be prosecuted are the ones police and juries find the most threatening and unjustifiable.
Feminism keeps trying to argue that women (should) have the right to walk around in miniskirts or naked and not worry about rape, as a counterbalance to the fact that most rape is not reported to the police and a lot of court cases where there is ambiguity about what happened are ruled in favor of men. But the reality is that in the US, a man is more likely to get away with raping someone he can plausibly claim he had consensual sex with, and he's more likely to get away with it for a host of other reasons that align with privilege. Rape charges have been much more dangerous for black men, broke men, etc. than young, white, professionals, for reasons that have more to do with political power than guilt or innocence.
What's changed is that we've stopped having a culture where society treats men as if they're across-the-board more valuable than women. Hand in hand with rape being a crime is a host of other assaults and abuses becoming crimes: men also lost the "right" in the eyes of the law to hit women, to control their access to money, and to deny them an education. These things all went together. And these are all things women won for themselves with armed struggle and political protest, in the west. Immigrants from other countries are bringing histories that don't have this. Some of them come from countries where women have prerogatives and privileges that are unknown in the west - they're not a monolith and they're not uniformly "more sexist" than westerners. But for better and worse, they've got different expectations about how men and women are supposed to behave, and they've got a lot of other reasons to have culture shock.
But these intricacies desperately need to be talked about, because when liberals want to brush the fact that nonwhites can also have a rape culture under the rug, it just pushes people who have direct experience with that into the arms of unapologetic racist rhetoric. It's treating their lives like dirty secrets, just to protect an ideology, a dogma, that is missing nuance.
You're deflecting, genius, and I didn't obfuscate anything. I was perfectly clear when I challenged a specific claim in the article, it's only empiric one, and you're not actually responding to my point. Instead you're just ignoring that and asserting the article's thesis is true anyway - without evidence (you provide no evidence for any claim, actually).
Basically this books presents evidence that any normal person who’s been paying attention already knows.
It’s about DADGUM time we stop pretending these crazed Islamic zealots are anything more than the vile, misogynistic, subhuman mongrels they are! They’re LUCKY to be able to emigrate from their god awful shitholes to OUR Western countries ! They perpetrate inhumane acts of the worst possible kind on our citizens and then our limp-wristed, cucked, guilt ridden Whites/Euros are too terrified at ‘offending’ them via prosecution much less even simple, open discussion of the truth so the madness goes on unabated! NO MORE! It’s high time we bury these semi-literate monkeys kicking them back to the Stone Age where they belong!
"In Germany, for example, asylum seekers were 12 percent of suspects in all sex crimes"
It's clearly Islamophobic to assume all Muslim suspects are guilty. Last I checked, suspects are presumed innocent. And to top it off, now YOU'RE violating western norms about justice, genius.
When one takes an “average” base rate of a trait or behavior and applies it to an “individual”, then yes it is subject to increased scrutiny and criticism. However, societal decisions are not based on such. They are based upon averages or probabilities. For example, we design air plane seats to meet the average height and weight of the population, knowing that there will be some that fall out of such “standards” and the seat will fall short of their individual requirements. We can not efficiently do otherwise. Similarly, we can justify a decision to restrict Muslim immigration from certain foreign countries as being too costly in terms of societal upheaval in any particular country. There is no right of anyone to move freely from one country to another. Just as your neighbors do no have a right to open your door and take a seat in front of your TV for a night’s worth of entertainment without your permission.
You didn't respond to my point at all. I didn't even mention that only 75% of asylum seekers are even Muslim and that crimes can have multiple suspects which is another reason comflating suspects and perpetrators is stupid.
He admits sexual assault statistics are hard to find and so this claim is really his and her ONLY empirical argument. And It's really bad because:
Most suspects innocent.
1/4 of asylum seekers aren't even Muslim anyway.
The propensity for mistreatment of women in Islamic cultures—according to Western standards—is a long one and well documented in many nations that have accepted such “refugees”. Sweden for example. You take a specific charge of rape and attempt to deflect through obfuscation. The simple fact is there is a culture within these communities that is foreign and at odds with the prevailing culture. There is no reason for this because there is no reason for these people to be allowed residence in the prevailing culture. That is the issue. Diversity is not a strength in these matters. It is a weakness and a cancer to the body politic of the host country.
Reading into things a bit too literally....