The lines you’ve drawn are good ones, and defensible, even if they are somewhat different from where others would draw the line. Taking a hard stance, and vilifying anyone who disagrees, just serves to reinforce the divide on this topic that society finds itself in, and drives moderate, reasonable people to support the trans rights activists.
I found your recent article to be very insightful, and then read your book “Why Do I Do That”. I have an 18 year old daughter who has identified as a boy for the past 4 years, and it is very obvious to me that shame plays a huge part in it. She hates the person she used to be and has constructed a false persona who she believes is much cooler and much more protected than her true self.
I wonder about the role of intentional shaming by trans activists on the internet whose goal it is to get vulnerable kids to transition. I think she was made to feel ashamed of who she was - a “privileged” white female from a reasonably well-off intact family, and then offered membership into the trans community as an antidote to that manufactured shame. It seems clear to me after reading your articles and book that transitioning kids serves as another form of affirmation for AGP people.
What are your thoughts on this? And do you have any (brief) advice for what a parent of a young adult can do to help combat that shame? (I’m also grappling with the fact that I must have had a lot to do with the development of that shame, and why she was vulnerable to the online trans community, but that’s too big of a topic.)
This is a well-known frequently hypothesized notion. Our children live within the Culture of Victimhood. Victim classes are elevated into positions of honor due to their victimhood. This leaves white normal people as the villains. By assuming the trans persona, she goes from top to bottom, which means that she is now in the top.
I believe that the solution is to teach the child that all persons, including white people, have self-respect and value. I view Stoic thinking as the antidote to Culture of Victimhood views.
I agree with what you say, but there’s a little more nuance to it. Because she didn’t go to the top. She went from a happy kid who freely did what she wanted, was successful at many things, and didn’t care too much what people thought of her to being depressed, having almost no real life friends, failing in school, walking with her head down, cutting herself, hating her family, hiding in her room all the time, participating in nothing, wearing only hugely oversized clothes she bought at goodwill, self-diagnosing with multiple mental health conditions, and generally becoming a shadow of the person she used to be. While she may have gained some clout in certain online circles clearly her overall social status and quality of social interactions was greatly diminished. Yet she can’t see this and still clings to this persona and says she is “happier than she’s ever been” in spite of the huge amount of evidence to the contrary. I think she was made to feel so ashamed of who she was that she’s still unable to acknowledge that person at all, and is convinced she’s much cooler now.
This is heart-breaking. I wish you well. Where DEI invades all.... White guilt...innocent children....destruction.... is this what malevolent forces looks like?
I don't have 'trans' kids, so I can't speak to exactly your experience. However, I have three teenagers with a whole host of conditions among them -- Autism, ADHD, depression, anxiety, potential personality disorders, sexual preference confusion -- so I'll share what I have found. There is quite a bit of "saving face" with one's peers and parents that complicates your kid's situation. It is therefore extraordinarily important to find a therapist the child trusts and respects, who can pose the all-important question: "how's this working for you?" The child needs to feel safe to take a hard look at that question and empowered to decide for herself. The best therapists will encourage her to take responsibility for her behavior and help her to see she is in charge of how she behaves and reacts. CBT is an absolute must. Be open to changing her school if she decides to re-invent herself.
Also, there's a bit of research on how referring to children by their 'preferred pronouns' reinforces the new gender identity and should be discouraged. You should find out what's going on at school. And see if you can get her to read "The Courage to be Disliked." It's a colloquy based on the psychological theories of Alfred Adler -- very easy to read. I would also recommend any old-school feminist literature that focusses on expanding what traits are "feminine" or "masculine." The entire non-binary/trans movement is regressive, i.e. based on very narrow, restrictive definitions of what men and women are. These kids think having a vagina means they have to act, think, and look a certain way.
Very well written. As for Hayton, and accepting him as a “her,” my concern is that in doing so just because he admits he is not a biological woman and freely admits to having AGP, it opens the door to accepting men with other types of sexual deviations/perversions, the victims of whom are primarily women and children.
In any event, Hayton is delusional on some level, regardless of his repeated assertions that he is not a biological woman. He seems to see nothing wrong in being AGP and admits it feeely. I reject that completely. AGP is a mental illness that should never be accepted as normal in a functioning society.
If he RATIONALLY KNOWS he's a man, how can he FEEL LIKE he's a woman?
What is the point of anything he does? Why doesn't he just get a haircut and call himself David?
He's worse than the trannies who actually call themselves real women because at least those idiots are consistent. He's completely inconsistent, pointless, and frustrates solving this problem by acting like one of the "good ones." There are no good ones. He's a man. And if he knows that, he needs to stop wasting everyone's time.
I have resorted to using name only and never pronouns- consistently for every trans person I refer to. I’m happy with it! I used it recently in an online debate and I feel like it cooled the whole conversation down while also making me feel less insane. I think what clarified my feelings was starting to learn a foreign language and really engaging with grammar. When you call a male person she/her, you are using third person pronouns do identify the person as female, biologically or in a symbolic way culturally as in this person is culturally female and thus can enter female spaces. I’m not ok with that, but I’m also not insane enough to correctly-sex a trans person to their face, so I just use Name or second person pronouns when appropriate. I have noticed most people not deep in the gender wars instinctively use name only bc they are confused anyways. I strongly recommend it.
That's what I do. It protects my job and relationships with work colleagues, two of whom are trans. It means I can get on with my life and not risk getting into trouble for it.
"Before his exit from 𝕏 last week, author and media commentator Andrew Doyle articulated a similar view after he was criticized for referring to Hayton, a biological male, as “she”; a vicious dogpile ensued as enraged gender critical feminists brutally denounced and insulted him."
Andrew Doyle has not been honest in the Debbie Hayton brouhaha. He took a nasty swipe at Alessandra Asteriti, by name, in his piece at UnHerd. She is a brilliant lawyer and legal scholar, not someone to trifle with. I recommend that everyone check out her "X" (Twitter) posts, especially those from February 11th, where she explains, quite logically, the legal ramifications, at least in the UK, that will ensue from some Gender Critical people using wrong sex pronouns. Here are a couple of her tweets:
"GC people who use female pronouns for at least some transwomen can be quoted as evidence in an employment tribunal against a woman who does not use compelled pronouns and appeals to her GC belief.
It stands to reason that, if GC people are willing to use pronouns, her refusal to do so is 'misgendering with impunity' as per Forstater v CGD. So their 'choice' could actually hurt women in tribunal cases defending their own choice not to call a man a woman.
It could be a transwoman who is not respectful to women (Doyle's criterion), or who did sexually abuse her (though this is not 'known', Turner's criterion). She could lose her job because of their choice to lie about some transwomen."
UnHerd did not grant Alessandra Asteriti the basic courtesy of the right to reply, so she posted this on her own:
Fortunately in the US, we do not have such laws. We can use the correct pronoun as we choose. I do not grant to strangers the right to direct me to misuse language.
While I appreciate how thoughtful this essay is, you missed an important point. Many, many—far too many—women have survived some degree of male sexual aggression, assault, or violence. When you include harassment, it’s practically 100%. For many of us, refusing pronoun coercion is about honoring our own mental health.
There have been court cases where a rape survivor was forced to refer to the rapist as “she,” which is state imposed psychological abuse of the rapist’s victim.
I encountered my first sexual predator when I was 8 years old. For this reason, referring to a male by female pronouns is profoundly unkind—to me, and all the women and children I know who have also survived sexual harm.
I completely agree, but how do we convince the handmaidens of these men? Women, young women really, are the foot soldiers of this insanity. Why are they so blind to the dangers of fetishistic, narcissistic men?
Fantastic article! Loving Dr Burgo’s takes on this issue! His patients are clearly lucky to have him as a therapist.
“Hayton remains married, hasn’t neglected all family obligations, and bears no resemblance to the Vindictive Narcissists I’ve described in this essay. Hayton acknowledges being a biological male and rejects gender ideology. As far as I can tell, Hayton means no harm to anyone.”
But you don’t know what he’s like at home, or to his wife.
“For many combatants, sacrificing a single man’s individual identity to fight trans rights activism makes sense when it furthers your cause. Given how aggressively and contemptuously women have been asked to respect the “inner truth” of trans-identified men and told to feel empathy for transgressors regardless of their own feelings, a refusal to feel any compassion is a natural kind of defiance.”
THIS. KJK is an ACTIVIST. Women are allowed to have any personality they have. She happens to be an extraordinarily feminine and ruthless woman- a bulldog. That’s who she is. She’s not setting up Genspect or some place for scientific and social inquiry filled with therapists and social workers. She’s a combatant, and we need people like that in our society, AS LONG AS someone can put a check on the raging fire these people put forth (cleansing, life bringing but also destructive). Saying a hard “NO” to tolerating disturbed men’s desire to be a sexy lady is a reasonable choice. It’s like people are seeking ONLY doormat-style motherhood from the women they encounter in public so they are shocked and horrified when some women are aggressive and ruthless and angry. People have less issue with what KJK says and more with how she says it. Interestingly, she hasn’t capitulated…and she’s pretty much the only women who has made her way onto mainstream platforms to share her stance in this issue, so… 🤔
“Gender critical feminists consider him a villain, while I see man lost in his belief that he “routinely passes” for a woman, and unaware of the problematic nature of his views. I see him as self-deceived rather than malicious.”
Well you would, bc ultimately it’s not your boundaries his identity requires he push and violate. 🤷♀️ What about his female students at school who feel socially pressured to call him “Ms Hayton,” knowing he may be getting off on it? Any empathy for them? What most men fundamentally don’t get is what if feels like for an otherwise nice man to sexually violate you.
“But then he argues that our perceptions of sex matter more than the biological reality, grounding his argument in a discussion of Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS).”
So he’s a “gender identity ideology for me but not for thee” trans. What I’ve been saying all along about “GC” trans people. Ritchie Herron had a great essay where he touches on this.
Great essay! Glad to see the dialogue moving forward on this issue in a productive and fair way.
🤷♀️ What about his female students at school who feel socially pressured to call him “Ms Hayton,” knowing he may be getting off on it?
Is on the spot, and core of the problem.
Such people recruit others without their permission to participate in a sexual fantasy for their sexual gratification. It is no different than being asked to be called a benign “Daddy” or perhaps “Master” as part of a game.
Most people aren’t familiar with or cannot conceptualize the enjoyment from being identified, shamed or praised in a sexual role in public. Imagine going to a dinner party and the host requests you refer to a particular guest a “the dirty girl”. Now imagine that in a business meeting, or perhaps a school class. That’s what’s being asked, no difference conceptually or structurally.
A madam and procuress I was friends with in Paris was paid enormous sums by wealthy men to engage in precisely this behavior, to invite strangers to a dinner where he must be addressed as she, or the dog, or other more involved things (Suzy’s life story is quite a book) Why pay for a kink you can get for free now?
(A photograph she gave me by Helmut Newton and I proceeded to lose in transit among European cities in the early 90’s. My dinner role was the large scary muscular bearded gay man entirely dressed in leather. I leaned to never eat drink or smoke anything at dinner or Alice-in-Wonderland things would ensue.)
As a feminist sex realist I am moving towards accepting the Debbie Haytons of this world as she. If someone lives as the other sex and feels and expresses honestly that they respect and acknowledge women's rights then why not? Its polite.
The trans people speaking out in favour of truth, and acknowledging the horrors of trans ideology and narcissistic gender identity declarations are not the people who are causing the trouble and aggression towards women and male comrades. The more often decent and thoughtful trans people speak up, the better for all of us.
There has to be a way forward with all of this. But I'm not a trans widow, and they have my full sympathy.
I vote for sex realist because it's informative. I guess I really like calling myself an opponent of legal sex change. A large majority of states currently will change birth certificates and driver's licenses to the opposite sex on request. But Kansas has recently passed a Women's Bill of Rights law that directs state agencies to desist and to change these documents on state databases immediately back to the correct sex and issue corrected copies when they are requested or renewed.
I used to have this view, but I'm moving in the opposite direction.
I'll preface by saying this has got quite long, and I considered not posting it, as I don't want you to think I'm having a go at you personally. This is just my thought process in reply to "why not? It's polite."
D Hayton seems to believe that while he's a man in biological reality, on some level, if others perceive him as a woman, he pretty much is one, or is one in some meaningful ways.
As Joseph Burgo addressed, D believes he (mostly) passes; he doesn't seem to realise that the vast majority of people who call him "she" are probably doing it out of politeness and/or fear. And because he believes that, on some level, being perceived as a woman makes him a woman... every time someone calls him "she", it's reinforcing this belief and helps him to rationalise his choices.
While I have compassion for people who are clearly very mentally unwell (and a man would have to be extremely unwell to willingly castrate his healthy testicles and have that surgery to create a cavern out of his healthy penis, in service to a sexual fetish), I don't actually believe it is at all beneficial to such people's wellbeing to feed their delusions.
They are desperate for external validation. If I understand correctly, it's a core part of their condition. If every single person (including their online echo chambers and sissy porn) immediately ceased the identity validation -- a large part being linguistic -- I think for a lot of them, that would cut off the supply. If no one else is playing, their identity wouldn't be rewarding anymore.
Sorry this is getting so long. I've had some thoughts bubbling away after reading your reply.
It reminds me of children playing pretend. We join them in their fantasies for a while, of being an animal or a pirate, but as adults, after a while we gently withdraw to a position of reality. I think we instinctively understand that we shouldn't humour them beyond a point, as they need us as their anchor in reality.
Using incorrect pronouns has been like a society-wide game of pretend but with mentally unwell people. Initially, I played along, thinking we all knew it was pretend and we were just being kind. Once I began to understand the depths of the illness and the effects of this society-wide reinforcement, I couldn't in good conscience continue to be part of it. I can't see who benefits from it. (A crude example, but kind of like telling an anorexic person, yes, you are fat.)
This is not intended as a judgement of those with different perspectives, just an attempt to outline a thought process. (I understand that there may be instances where it's unsafe or illegal for people to use correct pronouns, or they are struggling with how to address a loved one.)
...and obviously, this is just from a "compassion for trans-identified people" angle and doesn't touch on the many other issues, such as women's rights, the safeguarding of children, patients' rights, legal changes, freedom of speech, etc.
Apologies again for the length, this isn't intended to have a go at you at all. Just some thoughts, which may be of interest to some.
Also, if we understand the drive to seek validation as one of the forces behind AGP, we might view D Hayton's "appeasing the feminists" as the ultimate in validation seeking. Because if your greatest adversaries can be convinced to accept you, that has to be the closest to womanhood an AGP feels he can get.
(Not suggesting this is necessarily conscious malicious intent, but may be a powerful driver.)
Just so you know, "the Debbie Haytons of the world" have a different persona at home. He went through a completely "selfish and self-involved" year and a half, by his own admission, in his quest to "become a woman." My ex-husband is just such a man. I didn't find it possible to subject myself to a celibate life in submission to the gender therapists, as Stephanie Hayton admits to have done, in writing. My former husband committed financial fraud in court twice to get out of paying child support. In a moment of extreme self-involvement, he neglected our children and our older son was seriously hurt. The Hayton family happened not to have a serious event, illness or accident of their three children during the father's "transition." The belief that "the good ones" do not cause harm does not calculate in the random events in the lives of children, the illnesses, the accidents and the crises. The father of my sons still does not admit that he simply could have prevented a serious eye injury by taking them by the hands in a park where glass litter was on the pavement. It just is not so simple, Lyn.
And if he KNOWS he's a man, how can he FEEL LIKE he's a woman? He cannot. He literally disproves this whole bullshit delusion. None of it is real. Nobody should be praising such an idiot. Nothing but proof that standards for males are in hell.
There's no such thing as "trans" people. That is because there's no such thing as "trans."
There is no special category of human that exists for those who refuse to accept the reality of their sexed body. It doesn't exist.
And "the good ones" who admit they're not the opposite sex--what are they accomplishing exactly? They're worse than the ones who are full-on crazy and making irrational demands. They pretend to be the "good ones" so they frustrate solving the problem and act like this is a real issue. They're an even bigger problem than full-on delusional men like William "Lia" Thomas. They have no point.
I agree. I think a lot depends on the level of respect INTENDED by the trans person. Those who are clearly "genuinely" trans and desire to adopt the opposite gender identity without intending to infiltrate women's sports, or lead rape centers or other areas where women need to feel safe from men, thereby intending to harm biological women, are easy to identify and I would call them by their desired pronoun. Those males who are in-your-face intending to disrupt society by obviously taking on a female identity while clearly offending women, I will call "he/him". I think most people can tell which group is which. I also think a lot of this confusion came from the tendency for drag queens to wish to be called "she" when in their drag personae, but still referred to as men when not in their costumes. I think that works for drag queens, who are in an obvious performative identity, but does not work for transgender people in "woman face".
My sense is that you don't know much about Hayton. One thing you'd surely consider indefensible is his telling his wife early on that if, after he 'transitioned', she wanted him to move out of their house, he would do so. But guess what actually happened when she did indeed indicate this preference? Yep, no surprise -- he stayed, later claiming they'd worked out their differences. But even aside from this, he's really just a rank hypocrite. He's the kind of shame-seeking AGP willing to admit his maleness loud and (supposedly) proud, but still indicating his strong preference that most people not use accurate pronouns for him. This should be absolutely no problem though for Mr. Honest, right? Nope -- because he's apparently deluded enough to believe he actually passes much of the time. After all, in the twenty-teens he was instrumental in getting his teachers' union to change their rules so that he could use female-only bathrooms at school. He now carefully implies that he doesn't typically use women's public loos -- but he never says outright that he'll never do so, that he considers them off-limits as other men do.
The more I've learned about AGP, the more I've come to see that the best and really only way to induce men to stop wanting entrance to female spaces and contests is for everyone to consistently use male pronouns. This will do a great deal to lessen the attraction for them of woman-face and cosmetic surgery to approximate femaleness. Most of them will feel too ridiculous to go on with the act if we all continue to call them he/him. So many new cases of AGP will be averted. Hayton himself says his jealous fixation on acting out his paraphilia only became overwhelming when he saw other men online doing it and felt, damnit, if they could be out about their fetish, why couldn't he as well?
Last note: I'm surprised and disappointed to learn how A. Doyle behaved online. I've found his opinions thoughtful and considered until now. I hope he'll do some reflecting.
Dr. Burgo, I have to point out to you that while transwidowsvoices.org has a wealth of information on many of our experiences as trans widows, it is not a comprehensive presentation of what we've been through. In my data of 57 trans widows' experiences (the only such data in the world), 23 womenr eported they had been sexually assaulted (raped, essentially) by her husband, often while he was in a state of autogynophilic arousal, wearing women's lingerie. The other 2/3 of us got out before that happened or were otherwise able to protect ourselves. I've also found there's a pattern of the worst, most violent sexual assaults on the wives (or female partners) in the younger generation; these dudes are watching hypno-sissy porn, request the humiliation experience, then decide to be the perpetrator. In several cases, the rapes were reported to law enforcement. I'm talking about Canada, Scandinavia, the UK and US. None of the sexual crimes were prosecuted. Please do not sugarcoat the violence. Ute Heggen
Thank you for making intelligible, also emotionally intelligible, the position of women who take a very hard line against preferred pronouns in public discourse.
Nope. That was a LOT of words for, "I'll split hairs to the nth to accommodate MY empathy — and reality be damned." No man ever died having their correct pronouns used in their presence. But the dignity of/respect for countless women has by using the wrong ones. 👎 #realityRULES
When you allow your empathy to drive you to use "preferred pronouns" that are contrary to sex for certain trans-identified people, you are implying that the designation is earned. No man should be called "she", even if you think he's a sympathetic, nice guy.
And to be clear, Hayton is not a sympathetic, nice guy.
It really doesn't matter what drives them. I don't find these men interesting because it doesn't matter what drives male stupidity and perversion. Is this complicated? What is there to figure out here?
They're just nasty and need to be shamed. End of story. As if these men are such complex creatures.
Thank you for this, it's given me much to think about. I did want to point out that the perception standard of sex is obviously incoherent because sex is immutable, but that's why there's not only sex but also gender. I use pronouns as a courtesy towards transgender people who are cordial and who are making a good faith attempt to pass. But for people who are acting maliciously, I'm happy to condemn them and will "misgender" them if I'd been making an active attempt not to. Note that if they pass well enough that my senses tell me they are the gender they claim they are, then I will continue to use the correct pronouns since not doing so would be going against my own senses. To those who don't like the concept of gender, I would point you towards Debra Soh's "The End of Gender." While not perfect, it does give credence to the assertion that sex and gender are both binary and biological but not necessarily aligned with each other, which strikes me as consistent with my experiences.
My bulwark against gender ideology was not wanting to be intellectually taken advantage of just because other people say so and placing high value on my own senses and conscience. Similarly, I will not be pressured into using pronouns strictly concordant with natal sex by GC feminists or conservatives just because they get offended; I'd again much rather trust my own senses and standards. I already have a decent amount of disdain for feminism to begin with because of its push to center the sociopolitical aspect of womanhood over the biological — which provided fertile ground for gender ideology, ensconced subtle and overt forms of misandry into polite society, and set the stage for the strife between the sexes that we suffer from today. As such, I'm not privy to take radical feminists that seriously because they aren't willing to take their positions to their logical conclusion, which would buttress gender ideology, on account of their blatant favoritism for the "fairer" sex.
Ultimately I agree with the lines that Dr. Burgo has drawn as they roughly match my own. Evolution has gifted me (and all of us) with the ability to ascertain sex remarkably well, and if someone is able to fool that module, I won't fight it. If they're moving in that direction and still don't pass but through their actions and behavior acknowledge that my acquiescence is merely a courtesy, then I will play along.
The lines you’ve drawn are good ones, and defensible, even if they are somewhat different from where others would draw the line. Taking a hard stance, and vilifying anyone who disagrees, just serves to reinforce the divide on this topic that society finds itself in, and drives moderate, reasonable people to support the trans rights activists.
I found your recent article to be very insightful, and then read your book “Why Do I Do That”. I have an 18 year old daughter who has identified as a boy for the past 4 years, and it is very obvious to me that shame plays a huge part in it. She hates the person she used to be and has constructed a false persona who she believes is much cooler and much more protected than her true self.
I wonder about the role of intentional shaming by trans activists on the internet whose goal it is to get vulnerable kids to transition. I think she was made to feel ashamed of who she was - a “privileged” white female from a reasonably well-off intact family, and then offered membership into the trans community as an antidote to that manufactured shame. It seems clear to me after reading your articles and book that transitioning kids serves as another form of affirmation for AGP people.
What are your thoughts on this? And do you have any (brief) advice for what a parent of a young adult can do to help combat that shame? (I’m also grappling with the fact that I must have had a lot to do with the development of that shame, and why she was vulnerable to the online trans community, but that’s too big of a topic.)
This is a well-known frequently hypothesized notion. Our children live within the Culture of Victimhood. Victim classes are elevated into positions of honor due to their victimhood. This leaves white normal people as the villains. By assuming the trans persona, she goes from top to bottom, which means that she is now in the top.
I believe that the solution is to teach the child that all persons, including white people, have self-respect and value. I view Stoic thinking as the antidote to Culture of Victimhood views.
I agree with what you say, but there’s a little more nuance to it. Because she didn’t go to the top. She went from a happy kid who freely did what she wanted, was successful at many things, and didn’t care too much what people thought of her to being depressed, having almost no real life friends, failing in school, walking with her head down, cutting herself, hating her family, hiding in her room all the time, participating in nothing, wearing only hugely oversized clothes she bought at goodwill, self-diagnosing with multiple mental health conditions, and generally becoming a shadow of the person she used to be. While she may have gained some clout in certain online circles clearly her overall social status and quality of social interactions was greatly diminished. Yet she can’t see this and still clings to this persona and says she is “happier than she’s ever been” in spite of the huge amount of evidence to the contrary. I think she was made to feel so ashamed of who she was that she’s still unable to acknowledge that person at all, and is convinced she’s much cooler now.
This is heart-breaking. I wish you well. Where DEI invades all.... White guilt...innocent children....destruction.... is this what malevolent forces looks like?
I don't have 'trans' kids, so I can't speak to exactly your experience. However, I have three teenagers with a whole host of conditions among them -- Autism, ADHD, depression, anxiety, potential personality disorders, sexual preference confusion -- so I'll share what I have found. There is quite a bit of "saving face" with one's peers and parents that complicates your kid's situation. It is therefore extraordinarily important to find a therapist the child trusts and respects, who can pose the all-important question: "how's this working for you?" The child needs to feel safe to take a hard look at that question and empowered to decide for herself. The best therapists will encourage her to take responsibility for her behavior and help her to see she is in charge of how she behaves and reacts. CBT is an absolute must. Be open to changing her school if she decides to re-invent herself.
Also, there's a bit of research on how referring to children by their 'preferred pronouns' reinforces the new gender identity and should be discouraged. You should find out what's going on at school. And see if you can get her to read "The Courage to be Disliked." It's a colloquy based on the psychological theories of Alfred Adler -- very easy to read. I would also recommend any old-school feminist literature that focusses on expanding what traits are "feminine" or "masculine." The entire non-binary/trans movement is regressive, i.e. based on very narrow, restrictive definitions of what men and women are. These kids think having a vagina means they have to act, think, and look a certain way.
Very well written. As for Hayton, and accepting him as a “her,” my concern is that in doing so just because he admits he is not a biological woman and freely admits to having AGP, it opens the door to accepting men with other types of sexual deviations/perversions, the victims of whom are primarily women and children.
In any event, Hayton is delusional on some level, regardless of his repeated assertions that he is not a biological woman. He seems to see nothing wrong in being AGP and admits it feeely. I reject that completely. AGP is a mental illness that should never be accepted as normal in a functioning society.
If he RATIONALLY KNOWS he's a man, how can he FEEL LIKE he's a woman?
What is the point of anything he does? Why doesn't he just get a haircut and call himself David?
He's worse than the trannies who actually call themselves real women because at least those idiots are consistent. He's completely inconsistent, pointless, and frustrates solving this problem by acting like one of the "good ones." There are no good ones. He's a man. And if he knows that, he needs to stop wasting everyone's time.
Exactly, he is more clever than some trannies and therefore worse and more dangerous. TV shows and publications having him as a "good" trans 🤮
Delusional AND a narcissist and abuser
https://youtu.be/ClMR4jkIG_o?si=myEq05CB-vK4MztJ
I won't use the wrong pronouns. I know such a person. I use the name, but not pronouns. I actually don't even use the name much. I avoid the person.
I have resorted to using name only and never pronouns- consistently for every trans person I refer to. I’m happy with it! I used it recently in an online debate and I feel like it cooled the whole conversation down while also making me feel less insane. I think what clarified my feelings was starting to learn a foreign language and really engaging with grammar. When you call a male person she/her, you are using third person pronouns do identify the person as female, biologically or in a symbolic way culturally as in this person is culturally female and thus can enter female spaces. I’m not ok with that, but I’m also not insane enough to correctly-sex a trans person to their face, so I just use Name or second person pronouns when appropriate. I have noticed most people not deep in the gender wars instinctively use name only bc they are confused anyways. I strongly recommend it.
That's what I do. It protects my job and relationships with work colleagues, two of whom are trans. It means I can get on with my life and not risk getting into trouble for it.
You've written
"Before his exit from 𝕏 last week, author and media commentator Andrew Doyle articulated a similar view after he was criticized for referring to Hayton, a biological male, as “she”; a vicious dogpile ensued as enraged gender critical feminists brutally denounced and insulted him."
Andrew Doyle has not been honest in the Debbie Hayton brouhaha. He took a nasty swipe at Alessandra Asteriti, by name, in his piece at UnHerd. She is a brilliant lawyer and legal scholar, not someone to trifle with. I recommend that everyone check out her "X" (Twitter) posts, especially those from February 11th, where she explains, quite logically, the legal ramifications, at least in the UK, that will ensue from some Gender Critical people using wrong sex pronouns. Here are a couple of her tweets:
"GC people who use female pronouns for at least some transwomen can be quoted as evidence in an employment tribunal against a woman who does not use compelled pronouns and appeals to her GC belief.
It stands to reason that, if GC people are willing to use pronouns, her refusal to do so is 'misgendering with impunity' as per Forstater v CGD. So their 'choice' could actually hurt women in tribunal cases defending their own choice not to call a man a woman.
It could be a transwoman who is not respectful to women (Doyle's criterion), or who did sexually abuse her (though this is not 'known', Turner's criterion). She could lose her job because of their choice to lie about some transwomen."
UnHerd did not grant Alessandra Asteriti the basic courtesy of the right to reply, so she posted this on her own:
https://alessandraasteriti.substack.com/p/unheard
Read what she has to say.
Fortunately in the US, we do not have such laws. We can use the correct pronoun as we choose. I do not grant to strangers the right to direct me to misuse language.
I admire Alessandra very much.
While I appreciate how thoughtful this essay is, you missed an important point. Many, many—far too many—women have survived some degree of male sexual aggression, assault, or violence. When you include harassment, it’s practically 100%. For many of us, refusing pronoun coercion is about honoring our own mental health.
There have been court cases where a rape survivor was forced to refer to the rapist as “she,” which is state imposed psychological abuse of the rapist’s victim.
I encountered my first sexual predator when I was 8 years old. For this reason, referring to a male by female pronouns is profoundly unkind—to me, and all the women and children I know who have also survived sexual harm.
I completely agree, but how do we convince the handmaidens of these men? Women, young women really, are the foot soldiers of this insanity. Why are they so blind to the dangers of fetishistic, narcissistic men?
Fantastic article! Loving Dr Burgo’s takes on this issue! His patients are clearly lucky to have him as a therapist.
“Hayton remains married, hasn’t neglected all family obligations, and bears no resemblance to the Vindictive Narcissists I’ve described in this essay. Hayton acknowledges being a biological male and rejects gender ideology. As far as I can tell, Hayton means no harm to anyone.”
But you don’t know what he’s like at home, or to his wife.
“For many combatants, sacrificing a single man’s individual identity to fight trans rights activism makes sense when it furthers your cause. Given how aggressively and contemptuously women have been asked to respect the “inner truth” of trans-identified men and told to feel empathy for transgressors regardless of their own feelings, a refusal to feel any compassion is a natural kind of defiance.”
THIS. KJK is an ACTIVIST. Women are allowed to have any personality they have. She happens to be an extraordinarily feminine and ruthless woman- a bulldog. That’s who she is. She’s not setting up Genspect or some place for scientific and social inquiry filled with therapists and social workers. She’s a combatant, and we need people like that in our society, AS LONG AS someone can put a check on the raging fire these people put forth (cleansing, life bringing but also destructive). Saying a hard “NO” to tolerating disturbed men’s desire to be a sexy lady is a reasonable choice. It’s like people are seeking ONLY doormat-style motherhood from the women they encounter in public so they are shocked and horrified when some women are aggressive and ruthless and angry. People have less issue with what KJK says and more with how she says it. Interestingly, she hasn’t capitulated…and she’s pretty much the only women who has made her way onto mainstream platforms to share her stance in this issue, so… 🤔
“Gender critical feminists consider him a villain, while I see man lost in his belief that he “routinely passes” for a woman, and unaware of the problematic nature of his views. I see him as self-deceived rather than malicious.”
Well you would, bc ultimately it’s not your boundaries his identity requires he push and violate. 🤷♀️ What about his female students at school who feel socially pressured to call him “Ms Hayton,” knowing he may be getting off on it? Any empathy for them? What most men fundamentally don’t get is what if feels like for an otherwise nice man to sexually violate you.
“But then he argues that our perceptions of sex matter more than the biological reality, grounding his argument in a discussion of Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS).”
So he’s a “gender identity ideology for me but not for thee” trans. What I’ve been saying all along about “GC” trans people. Ritchie Herron had a great essay where he touches on this.
Great essay! Glad to see the dialogue moving forward on this issue in a productive and fair way.
Your comment
🤷♀️ What about his female students at school who feel socially pressured to call him “Ms Hayton,” knowing he may be getting off on it?
Is on the spot, and core of the problem.
Such people recruit others without their permission to participate in a sexual fantasy for their sexual gratification. It is no different than being asked to be called a benign “Daddy” or perhaps “Master” as part of a game.
Most people aren’t familiar with or cannot conceptualize the enjoyment from being identified, shamed or praised in a sexual role in public. Imagine going to a dinner party and the host requests you refer to a particular guest a “the dirty girl”. Now imagine that in a business meeting, or perhaps a school class. That’s what’s being asked, no difference conceptually or structurally.
A madam and procuress I was friends with in Paris was paid enormous sums by wealthy men to engage in precisely this behavior, to invite strangers to a dinner where he must be addressed as she, or the dog, or other more involved things (Suzy’s life story is quite a book) Why pay for a kink you can get for free now?
https://emuseum.mfah.org/internal/media/dispatcher/142029/preview
(A photograph she gave me by Helmut Newton and I proceeded to lose in transit among European cities in the early 90’s. My dinner role was the large scary muscular bearded gay man entirely dressed in leather. I leaned to never eat drink or smoke anything at dinner or Alice-in-Wonderland things would ensue.)
As a feminist sex realist I am moving towards accepting the Debbie Haytons of this world as she. If someone lives as the other sex and feels and expresses honestly that they respect and acknowledge women's rights then why not? Its polite.
The trans people speaking out in favour of truth, and acknowledging the horrors of trans ideology and narcissistic gender identity declarations are not the people who are causing the trouble and aggression towards women and male comrades. The more often decent and thoughtful trans people speak up, the better for all of us.
There has to be a way forward with all of this. But I'm not a trans widow, and they have my full sympathy.
"sex realist" - better than "gender critical". I also like "biological realist".
I vote for sex realist because it's informative. I guess I really like calling myself an opponent of legal sex change. A large majority of states currently will change birth certificates and driver's licenses to the opposite sex on request. But Kansas has recently passed a Women's Bill of Rights law that directs state agencies to desist and to change these documents on state databases immediately back to the correct sex and issue corrected copies when they are requested or renewed.
I used to have this view, but I'm moving in the opposite direction.
I'll preface by saying this has got quite long, and I considered not posting it, as I don't want you to think I'm having a go at you personally. This is just my thought process in reply to "why not? It's polite."
D Hayton seems to believe that while he's a man in biological reality, on some level, if others perceive him as a woman, he pretty much is one, or is one in some meaningful ways.
As Joseph Burgo addressed, D believes he (mostly) passes; he doesn't seem to realise that the vast majority of people who call him "she" are probably doing it out of politeness and/or fear. And because he believes that, on some level, being perceived as a woman makes him a woman... every time someone calls him "she", it's reinforcing this belief and helps him to rationalise his choices.
While I have compassion for people who are clearly very mentally unwell (and a man would have to be extremely unwell to willingly castrate his healthy testicles and have that surgery to create a cavern out of his healthy penis, in service to a sexual fetish), I don't actually believe it is at all beneficial to such people's wellbeing to feed their delusions.
They are desperate for external validation. If I understand correctly, it's a core part of their condition. If every single person (including their online echo chambers and sissy porn) immediately ceased the identity validation -- a large part being linguistic -- I think for a lot of them, that would cut off the supply. If no one else is playing, their identity wouldn't be rewarding anymore.
Sorry this is getting so long. I've had some thoughts bubbling away after reading your reply.
It reminds me of children playing pretend. We join them in their fantasies for a while, of being an animal or a pirate, but as adults, after a while we gently withdraw to a position of reality. I think we instinctively understand that we shouldn't humour them beyond a point, as they need us as their anchor in reality.
Using incorrect pronouns has been like a society-wide game of pretend but with mentally unwell people. Initially, I played along, thinking we all knew it was pretend and we were just being kind. Once I began to understand the depths of the illness and the effects of this society-wide reinforcement, I couldn't in good conscience continue to be part of it. I can't see who benefits from it. (A crude example, but kind of like telling an anorexic person, yes, you are fat.)
This is not intended as a judgement of those with different perspectives, just an attempt to outline a thought process. (I understand that there may be instances where it's unsafe or illegal for people to use correct pronouns, or they are struggling with how to address a loved one.)
...and obviously, this is just from a "compassion for trans-identified people" angle and doesn't touch on the many other issues, such as women's rights, the safeguarding of children, patients' rights, legal changes, freedom of speech, etc.
Apologies again for the length, this isn't intended to have a go at you at all. Just some thoughts, which may be of interest to some.
Also, if we understand the drive to seek validation as one of the forces behind AGP, we might view D Hayton's "appeasing the feminists" as the ultimate in validation seeking. Because if your greatest adversaries can be convinced to accept you, that has to be the closest to womanhood an AGP feels he can get.
(Not suggesting this is necessarily conscious malicious intent, but may be a powerful driver.)
Just so you know, "the Debbie Haytons of the world" have a different persona at home. He went through a completely "selfish and self-involved" year and a half, by his own admission, in his quest to "become a woman." My ex-husband is just such a man. I didn't find it possible to subject myself to a celibate life in submission to the gender therapists, as Stephanie Hayton admits to have done, in writing. My former husband committed financial fraud in court twice to get out of paying child support. In a moment of extreme self-involvement, he neglected our children and our older son was seriously hurt. The Hayton family happened not to have a serious event, illness or accident of their three children during the father's "transition." The belief that "the good ones" do not cause harm does not calculate in the random events in the lives of children, the illnesses, the accidents and the crises. The father of my sons still does not admit that he simply could have prevented a serious eye injury by taking them by the hands in a park where glass litter was on the pavement. It just is not so simple, Lyn.
He's a man. Nothing more.
And if he KNOWS he's a man, how can he FEEL LIKE he's a woman? He cannot. He literally disproves this whole bullshit delusion. None of it is real. Nobody should be praising such an idiot. Nothing but proof that standards for males are in hell.
There's no such thing as "trans" people. That is because there's no such thing as "trans."
There is no special category of human that exists for those who refuse to accept the reality of their sexed body. It doesn't exist.
And "the good ones" who admit they're not the opposite sex--what are they accomplishing exactly? They're worse than the ones who are full-on crazy and making irrational demands. They pretend to be the "good ones" so they frustrate solving the problem and act like this is a real issue. They're an even bigger problem than full-on delusional men like William "Lia" Thomas. They have no point.
"Trans" doesn't exist.
I agree. I think a lot depends on the level of respect INTENDED by the trans person. Those who are clearly "genuinely" trans and desire to adopt the opposite gender identity without intending to infiltrate women's sports, or lead rape centers or other areas where women need to feel safe from men, thereby intending to harm biological women, are easy to identify and I would call them by their desired pronoun. Those males who are in-your-face intending to disrupt society by obviously taking on a female identity while clearly offending women, I will call "he/him". I think most people can tell which group is which. I also think a lot of this confusion came from the tendency for drag queens to wish to be called "she" when in their drag personae, but still referred to as men when not in their costumes. I think that works for drag queens, who are in an obvious performative identity, but does not work for transgender people in "woman face".
I also do appreciate your point that it's valuable having these voices speaking out against gender ideology.
My sense is that you don't know much about Hayton. One thing you'd surely consider indefensible is his telling his wife early on that if, after he 'transitioned', she wanted him to move out of their house, he would do so. But guess what actually happened when she did indeed indicate this preference? Yep, no surprise -- he stayed, later claiming they'd worked out their differences. But even aside from this, he's really just a rank hypocrite. He's the kind of shame-seeking AGP willing to admit his maleness loud and (supposedly) proud, but still indicating his strong preference that most people not use accurate pronouns for him. This should be absolutely no problem though for Mr. Honest, right? Nope -- because he's apparently deluded enough to believe he actually passes much of the time. After all, in the twenty-teens he was instrumental in getting his teachers' union to change their rules so that he could use female-only bathrooms at school. He now carefully implies that he doesn't typically use women's public loos -- but he never says outright that he'll never do so, that he considers them off-limits as other men do.
The more I've learned about AGP, the more I've come to see that the best and really only way to induce men to stop wanting entrance to female spaces and contests is for everyone to consistently use male pronouns. This will do a great deal to lessen the attraction for them of woman-face and cosmetic surgery to approximate femaleness. Most of them will feel too ridiculous to go on with the act if we all continue to call them he/him. So many new cases of AGP will be averted. Hayton himself says his jealous fixation on acting out his paraphilia only became overwhelming when he saw other men online doing it and felt, damnit, if they could be out about their fetish, why couldn't he as well?
Last note: I'm surprised and disappointed to learn how A. Doyle behaved online. I've found his opinions thoughtful and considered until now. I hope he'll do some reflecting.
Dr. Burgo, I have to point out to you that while transwidowsvoices.org has a wealth of information on many of our experiences as trans widows, it is not a comprehensive presentation of what we've been through. In my data of 57 trans widows' experiences (the only such data in the world), 23 womenr eported they had been sexually assaulted (raped, essentially) by her husband, often while he was in a state of autogynophilic arousal, wearing women's lingerie. The other 2/3 of us got out before that happened or were otherwise able to protect ourselves. I've also found there's a pattern of the worst, most violent sexual assaults on the wives (or female partners) in the younger generation; these dudes are watching hypno-sissy porn, request the humiliation experience, then decide to be the perpetrator. In several cases, the rapes were reported to law enforcement. I'm talking about Canada, Scandinavia, the UK and US. None of the sexual crimes were prosecuted. Please do not sugarcoat the violence. Ute Heggen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCD6uvnpl78
Thank you for making intelligible, also emotionally intelligible, the position of women who take a very hard line against preferred pronouns in public discourse.
Nope. That was a LOT of words for, "I'll split hairs to the nth to accommodate MY empathy — and reality be damned." No man ever died having their correct pronouns used in their presence. But the dignity of/respect for countless women has by using the wrong ones. 👎 #realityRULES
Stephanie was forced to to become an incel. I don’t know if she enjoyed PIV as much as I but I would be furious and embarrassed.
I disagree with you because you have not considered Stephanie and the kids.
When you allow your empathy to drive you to use "preferred pronouns" that are contrary to sex for certain trans-identified people, you are implying that the designation is earned. No man should be called "she", even if you think he's a sympathetic, nice guy.
And to be clear, Hayton is not a sympathetic, nice guy.
It really doesn't matter what drives them. I don't find these men interesting because it doesn't matter what drives male stupidity and perversion. Is this complicated? What is there to figure out here?
They're just nasty and need to be shamed. End of story. As if these men are such complex creatures.
Thank you for this, it's given me much to think about. I did want to point out that the perception standard of sex is obviously incoherent because sex is immutable, but that's why there's not only sex but also gender. I use pronouns as a courtesy towards transgender people who are cordial and who are making a good faith attempt to pass. But for people who are acting maliciously, I'm happy to condemn them and will "misgender" them if I'd been making an active attempt not to. Note that if they pass well enough that my senses tell me they are the gender they claim they are, then I will continue to use the correct pronouns since not doing so would be going against my own senses. To those who don't like the concept of gender, I would point you towards Debra Soh's "The End of Gender." While not perfect, it does give credence to the assertion that sex and gender are both binary and biological but not necessarily aligned with each other, which strikes me as consistent with my experiences.
My bulwark against gender ideology was not wanting to be intellectually taken advantage of just because other people say so and placing high value on my own senses and conscience. Similarly, I will not be pressured into using pronouns strictly concordant with natal sex by GC feminists or conservatives just because they get offended; I'd again much rather trust my own senses and standards. I already have a decent amount of disdain for feminism to begin with because of its push to center the sociopolitical aspect of womanhood over the biological — which provided fertile ground for gender ideology, ensconced subtle and overt forms of misandry into polite society, and set the stage for the strife between the sexes that we suffer from today. As such, I'm not privy to take radical feminists that seriously because they aren't willing to take their positions to their logical conclusion, which would buttress gender ideology, on account of their blatant favoritism for the "fairer" sex.
Ultimately I agree with the lines that Dr. Burgo has drawn as they roughly match my own. Evolution has gifted me (and all of us) with the ability to ascertain sex remarkably well, and if someone is able to fool that module, I won't fight it. If they're moving in that direction and still don't pass but through their actions and behavior acknowledge that my acquiescence is merely a courtesy, then I will play along.