I find this entire discussion unbearable because it reminds me how privileged we are in the west to even be having this conversation. As we speak, little girls bodies are being repeatedly raped by men who think they're entitled to shove their penis into her tiny little vagina because they've paid a couple of dollars to her pimp/torturer/slave owner.
The fact that we spend so much time, energy and resources accommodating fetishists and freaks leaves me quaking with righteous rage. Meanwhile, that little girl endures unfathomable suffering because we have abandoned her. As this patriarchal culture continues to centre men's fetishes, and feeds its obsession with controlling women's bodies, we're collectively losing our minds. Now these men have the ultimate power to redefine reality. It's unspeakable in its sociopathy.
The saddest thing of all is that women's socialization as nurturers has been weaponized against us. Our desire to 'be kind' has effectively decapitated the women's liberation movement. Andrea Dworkin would be absolutely stunned by what women are agreeing to in trans ideology.
I despair for my daughter and my 16 year old grandaughter.
Most of the adult men who want us to believe that they are women are heterosexual with the sexual fetish of autogynephilia. They get sexual arousal when people “validate” their insistence that they are women. So to be polite, we are supposed to join in playing along with their sexual fetish?! Why? Why do we have to be involved in their sexual fetish?
Yes, why are we normalizing this deviance? Especially since the "success" of these AGP males convinces other, younger, males to adopt this perverse and psychotic delusion?
George, please watch the 45 minute video linked below. It will explain exactly why this perverted and harmful "trans" nonsense is now being pushed down our throats.
Caroline Corado-Perez did a podcast (Visible Women) on why more men are concert pianists than women are. Basically - piano keys are too far apart for women to comfortably (and thus, reliably) play complex pieces with long chords. Pianos are designed based on men’s hand size.
Mr. Beuchner can mimic feminine accoutrements as much as he wants, he’s still a man and his ability to perform piano as a concert pianist is greatly amplified by his sex.
Why can’t he wear the clothes he wears while still acknowledging that he’s a man?
Pronouns are to help the listener understand who the speaker is talking about. They aren't to indulge the people being spoken of, or to make definitive statements about the person's biology. If the person being referred to looks like a woman, or I believe the listener believes the person looks like a woman, I use she. Unless dealing with a biological issue, as in medicine or certain crimes. Very simple.
"when it comes to people who... have to rely on medicalization to alter their phenotype bc it’s the only path available for them to live a normal life...."
No. When a mentally disturbed man pumps his body full of wrong sex hormones and has half a dozen surgeries to turn his penis inside out and connect it to part of his colon, that's not what any sane person would consider a "normal life."
No. The whole"trans" debacle has proved to be so out of control, so damaging to the larger society, none of them, without exception, should ever be allowed to pass themselves off as something they are not.
Homo sapiens are a dimorphic species and everyone of us is born either male or female and our conscious selves can exist only within our physical sexed bodies until we die. Cosmetic surgeries and wrong sex hormones cannot actually change the biological sex each individual has been born as.
Nobody can change sex and there are no convincing arguments that there is any benefit for the law and all of society to be compelled to pretend that it is possible. Not only should trans genderism be dismissed as a fantasy but there are many more convincing arguments why the premise harms the rights, safety and dignity of a very large proportion of society and should be rejected on that basis.
Endorsing the use of preferred pronouns harms more people than it benefits. So my strategy is stick to reality and let the individuals who are confused take responsibility for getting appropriate therapy.
This was a pleasure to read and echoes my own positions very closely. It was interesting reading about the thoughts of someone else doing precisely what I was doing as I read the initial essays.
So if a guy looks really feminine, he gets a “she”, but if his makeup/hair etc. leave something to be desired, then it’s “he”. That approach is just acceptance of the trans ideology. Interestingly, you don’t find trans-identified males trying to look like Angela Merkel, for example (or Nicola Sturgeon 🤣)
but it's true: if it looks like a man/woman, talks like a man/woman etc, it feels much more natural and less coercive.
i've met multiple people at parties and had no idea they were "trans", so there was zero issue; then i've had my nephew bring over a scruffy young man in makeup and nail polish and told me they "identify as a woman" LOL and I should call them "she" or "they".
at which point i usually just crack up and avoid them.
A friend should be honest when honesty is helpful. Am I doing something stupid as a parent? Please confront me. Is my new haircut ugly? Please let me know. However, if I made a parenting mistake 10 years ago that I cannot correct now, I don't want my friends to add to my guilt by honesty. And if I look 10 years older than my age, please please lie to my face.:)
No. Sorry. I did not hit the heart button for this article.
Pronouns are the gateway drug to "trans"madness. And if this hurts the tender feelings of the mythological creature, the so-called "true trans," let them book an appointment with a psychiatrist. A non-affirming psychiatrist.
I will not participate in the pronoun stupidity. I don't care who is offended. Luckily, I am retired so no one can coerce me into lying with my speech.
No one owns the language. So, no one can unilaterally redefine the "plural pronoun they" to refer to a single person. Nor can a woman force me to use "he" in referring to her.
It is not "kind" to use a person's "preferred pronouns." Engaging in that delusion only perpetuates and spreads a contagious psychiatric disorder. Children are often the victims of this contagion and it inflicts psychological and physical suffering on them. Causing that suffering is cruelty, not kindness. The rights of society and its most vulnerable people are more important than the wounded feelings of a narcissist. I will use the pronouns that are consistent with observable reality, which in some instances may include calling a man "she" and a woman "he" but I will not be compelled to use "preferred pronouns" by an unreasonable request from a narcissist.
So often I will read an essay on this topic, where I agree with most of it. This is the first, where I agree with all of it, for exactly the same reasons.
Thank you for writing the essay I would have written if I had a way with words.
Re pronouns as a sign of “genuine respect for the truly dysphoric (rare, often lost in the shuffle amongst the LARPers, the contagion-infected and the kinky).”
1. Dysphoric just means they are truly unhappy with the sex of their body. Lots and lots of people, including the contagion-infected and the kinky, really truly meet the criteria for “gender dysphoria.” That’s a problem with this very slippery and vague diagnosis: all sorts of people truly fall under it. So I don’t think “truly dysphoric” is a useful criterion.
2. Some people think there’s some sort of “real and rare” condition of “being trans” separate from the categories (like the large wave of teens, and the kinksters) they view as being “less real.” But truly, this thing we call “being trans” in the 21st century West, which evolved from and is quite different from what we called “being trans” in the 20th century West, is a pure _cultural creation_ and not a “real” physical condition in any way. Trans as a concept is truly something we made up. Other cultures have made up much better (and more functional!) narratives and niches for their gender nonconforming people:
3. Even if there were some sort of “true” gender dysphoric (there’s not-- if they fall under the diagnosis, they fall under the diagnosis--which indicates a problem with the diagnosis) -- but if there WERE an “ideal” and “real” example of someone who was gender-nonconforming from earliest childhood, really simply wishes he or she were the opposite sex, and gives it their earnest best shot, I’m not sure going along with their pronouns is necessarily a sign of respect and kindness.
I’m less sure on this point than the other two points, but I’m...fairly sure that’s what I think.
Do we call anorexic people Fatty because it fits their beliefs? Do we agree with people with body dysmorphia (who have a false belief that they are deformed), that yes, they are unbearable to look at? Do we agree with a psychotic person that yes, the CIA is after them, so barricading themselves at home is an excellent idea?
Or would we view those things as unkind, counterproductive, condescending, ultimately harmful to a person who is truly struggling and deserves care and compassion but maybe not our “agreement”?
Yes, I agree. I do not refer to myself as a "cis male". I refer to myself as a "normal male".
The term "normal" is very interesting. Today, NO ONE will say that anything is normal. In church, we do responsive reading. There is the italicized text, and there is the other text. I listen for the term used for this - "bold" (it's actually not bold), straight. The service leader wiggles and squirms to find a term that can be used. I use "regular" or "normal" for this text.
I used to use "she" when mentioning my ex-husband, who ideates himself in a female persona. I do not mind taking the extra few seconds to write that phrase or the "awkwardness" of it. I just read a comment under a youtube video on this topic, which I found plausible, tragic though it was. The commenter said he was 70 years old, had identified as "trans" for 50 years and was now detransitioning. It did not strike me as a troll comment. The field of psychology has abandoned, failed and abdicated in their evolution of the "dysphoric" diagnosis. We do not know if any of the "true trans" individuals mentioned here will detransition next week. This is how unstable the entire concept is. Blair White had a terrible childhood involving severe abuse, and only "looks female" because of painful "facial feminization." I have a few trans widows contacting me through my channel every week, and husbands society believes are "the nice ones," often willfully, with a therapist's approval behave destructively towards their loved ones. Ute Heggen
There are many good points here, and in most of the original essays. There is an unbearable social tension we are faced with, and any defense of using preferred pronouns must, for good or ill, rest on “be kind.” Who doesn’t want to be kind? Who doesn’t modify language and behavior to communicate effectively, to connect with others? Our language changes depending on who we are speaking with and who we are speaking about. My atheist friend who used to be in a religious cult quotes Bible verses to make philosophical points about ethics to his evangelical Christian friend. So: Colin and others would not use “preferred pronouns” when writing about a rapist. No “her penis” for obvious offensive types, or for AGP fetishists who just want to invade women’s spaces. That’s at least a good line to draw.
The problem comes with the lovely classical pianist Barbara mentions who is a trans identified male and presents convincingly as female. This person just wants to live a productive life doing (insert pronoun) thing. This is why the tension is unbearable and unresolvable for those of us opposed to gender ideology. I would instinctively rather call the pianist “she,” and it feels awkward as well as rude to use male pronouns.
But Kara and the hardliners are right on one level and have found the only way to resolve it. Referring to the pianist as a “he” cannot but help make a subtle shift in my mind when thinking about that person. I don’t believe it’s all about sexist stereotypes, either. The differences between “he” and “she” in humans are many. I have found that when I have tried calling trans identified people by their preferred pronouns (when talking about them), even when speaking about very nice people who agree with me, it messes with my grounding in reality. Pronouns ARE rohypnol, and it matters beyond talking about rapists and violent men. I think differently about the wonderful Corrina Cohn when I call him “she” than when I call him “he” when talking about him. He is the same writer, the same brilliant thinker, but it somehow matters. It is wonderful that Corrina has made it clear he is cool with either pronouns. Try saying that sentence with a “she” and see if it doesn’t affect you.
But I still do not personally have a hardline resolution for this issue. Especially with trans identified females who really look like dudes and are people I respect or care for.
The key point of the "pronoun idiocy" is that it requires enforcement. After all, most of the time that a pronoun is used, the person being referred to is not present.
I have coined the term "pronarc" for the pronoun enforcers. When there are pronoun misuses, the pronarc is there to enforce the coercion involved in pronoun specification.
I find this entire discussion unbearable because it reminds me how privileged we are in the west to even be having this conversation. As we speak, little girls bodies are being repeatedly raped by men who think they're entitled to shove their penis into her tiny little vagina because they've paid a couple of dollars to her pimp/torturer/slave owner.
The fact that we spend so much time, energy and resources accommodating fetishists and freaks leaves me quaking with righteous rage. Meanwhile, that little girl endures unfathomable suffering because we have abandoned her. As this patriarchal culture continues to centre men's fetishes, and feeds its obsession with controlling women's bodies, we're collectively losing our minds. Now these men have the ultimate power to redefine reality. It's unspeakable in its sociopathy.
The saddest thing of all is that women's socialization as nurturers has been weaponized against us. Our desire to 'be kind' has effectively decapitated the women's liberation movement. Andrea Dworkin would be absolutely stunned by what women are agreeing to in trans ideology.
I despair for my daughter and my 16 year old grandaughter.
Most of the adult men who want us to believe that they are women are heterosexual with the sexual fetish of autogynephilia. They get sexual arousal when people “validate” their insistence that they are women. So to be polite, we are supposed to join in playing along with their sexual fetish?! Why? Why do we have to be involved in their sexual fetish?
Yes, why are we normalizing this deviance? Especially since the "success" of these AGP males convinces other, younger, males to adopt this perverse and psychotic delusion?
Don't normalize this dysphoria.
George, please watch the 45 minute video linked below. It will explain exactly why this perverted and harmful "trans" nonsense is now being pushed down our throats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGKxSyEqCgU
And "she" is a man.
Caroline Corado-Perez did a podcast (Visible Women) on why more men are concert pianists than women are. Basically - piano keys are too far apart for women to comfortably (and thus, reliably) play complex pieces with long chords. Pianos are designed based on men’s hand size.
Mr. Beuchner can mimic feminine accoutrements as much as he wants, he’s still a man and his ability to perform piano as a concert pianist is greatly amplified by his sex.
Why can’t he wear the clothes he wears while still acknowledging that he’s a man?
Pronouns are to help the listener understand who the speaker is talking about. They aren't to indulge the people being spoken of, or to make definitive statements about the person's biology. If the person being referred to looks like a woman, or I believe the listener believes the person looks like a woman, I use she. Unless dealing with a biological issue, as in medicine or certain crimes. Very simple.
Not so simple for those of us who have different goals than you have.
No. You haven't made the case that lying to prop up a delusion or avoid social censure is "very simple."
No.
I won't do it.
"when it comes to people who... have to rely on medicalization to alter their phenotype bc it’s the only path available for them to live a normal life...."
No. When a mentally disturbed man pumps his body full of wrong sex hormones and has half a dozen surgeries to turn his penis inside out and connect it to part of his colon, that's not what any sane person would consider a "normal life."
No. The whole"trans" debacle has proved to be so out of control, so damaging to the larger society, none of them, without exception, should ever be allowed to pass themselves off as something they are not.
Homo sapiens are a dimorphic species and everyone of us is born either male or female and our conscious selves can exist only within our physical sexed bodies until we die. Cosmetic surgeries and wrong sex hormones cannot actually change the biological sex each individual has been born as.
Nobody can change sex and there are no convincing arguments that there is any benefit for the law and all of society to be compelled to pretend that it is possible. Not only should trans genderism be dismissed as a fantasy but there are many more convincing arguments why the premise harms the rights, safety and dignity of a very large proportion of society and should be rejected on that basis.
Endorsing the use of preferred pronouns harms more people than it benefits. So my strategy is stick to reality and let the individuals who are confused take responsibility for getting appropriate therapy.
My goodness you have a gift with words, Barbara.
This was a pleasure to read and echoes my own positions very closely. It was interesting reading about the thoughts of someone else doing precisely what I was doing as I read the initial essays.
So if a guy looks really feminine, he gets a “she”, but if his makeup/hair etc. leave something to be desired, then it’s “he”. That approach is just acceptance of the trans ideology. Interestingly, you don’t find trans-identified males trying to look like Angela Merkel, for example (or Nicola Sturgeon 🤣)
i think they call it "passing privilege" LOL
but it's true: if it looks like a man/woman, talks like a man/woman etc, it feels much more natural and less coercive.
i've met multiple people at parties and had no idea they were "trans", so there was zero issue; then i've had my nephew bring over a scruffy young man in makeup and nail polish and told me they "identify as a woman" LOL and I should call them "she" or "they".
at which point i usually just crack up and avoid them.
True fakes vs. false fakes? My head is about to explode. LOL!
I disagree with the friendship point, a friend should be honest more than dishonestly kind.
A friend should be honest when honesty is helpful. Am I doing something stupid as a parent? Please confront me. Is my new haircut ugly? Please let me know. However, if I made a parenting mistake 10 years ago that I cannot correct now, I don't want my friends to add to my guilt by honesty. And if I look 10 years older than my age, please please lie to my face.:)
Haha, for sure!
No. Sorry. I did not hit the heart button for this article.
Pronouns are the gateway drug to "trans"madness. And if this hurts the tender feelings of the mythological creature, the so-called "true trans," let them book an appointment with a psychiatrist. A non-affirming psychiatrist.
Well-written.
I will not participate in the pronoun stupidity. I don't care who is offended. Luckily, I am retired so no one can coerce me into lying with my speech.
No one owns the language. So, no one can unilaterally redefine the "plural pronoun they" to refer to a single person. Nor can a woman force me to use "he" in referring to her.
It is not "kind" to use a person's "preferred pronouns." Engaging in that delusion only perpetuates and spreads a contagious psychiatric disorder. Children are often the victims of this contagion and it inflicts psychological and physical suffering on them. Causing that suffering is cruelty, not kindness. The rights of society and its most vulnerable people are more important than the wounded feelings of a narcissist. I will use the pronouns that are consistent with observable reality, which in some instances may include calling a man "she" and a woman "he" but I will not be compelled to use "preferred pronouns" by an unreasonable request from a narcissist.
So often I will read an essay on this topic, where I agree with most of it. This is the first, where I agree with all of it, for exactly the same reasons.
Thank you for writing the essay I would have written if I had a way with words.
Re pronouns as a sign of “genuine respect for the truly dysphoric (rare, often lost in the shuffle amongst the LARPers, the contagion-infected and the kinky).”
1. Dysphoric just means they are truly unhappy with the sex of their body. Lots and lots of people, including the contagion-infected and the kinky, really truly meet the criteria for “gender dysphoria.” That’s a problem with this very slippery and vague diagnosis: all sorts of people truly fall under it. So I don’t think “truly dysphoric” is a useful criterion.
https://bprice.substack.com/p/lots-of-kids-have-real-and-diagnosable
2. Some people think there’s some sort of “real and rare” condition of “being trans” separate from the categories (like the large wave of teens, and the kinksters) they view as being “less real.” But truly, this thing we call “being trans” in the 21st century West, which evolved from and is quite different from what we called “being trans” in the 20th century West, is a pure _cultural creation_ and not a “real” physical condition in any way. Trans as a concept is truly something we made up. Other cultures have made up much better (and more functional!) narratives and niches for their gender nonconforming people:
https://bprice.substack.com/p/trans-is-something-we-made-up
3. Even if there were some sort of “true” gender dysphoric (there’s not-- if they fall under the diagnosis, they fall under the diagnosis--which indicates a problem with the diagnosis) -- but if there WERE an “ideal” and “real” example of someone who was gender-nonconforming from earliest childhood, really simply wishes he or she were the opposite sex, and gives it their earnest best shot, I’m not sure going along with their pronouns is necessarily a sign of respect and kindness.
I’m less sure on this point than the other two points, but I’m...fairly sure that’s what I think.
Do we call anorexic people Fatty because it fits their beliefs? Do we agree with people with body dysmorphia (who have a false belief that they are deformed), that yes, they are unbearable to look at? Do we agree with a psychotic person that yes, the CIA is after them, so barricading themselves at home is an excellent idea?
Or would we view those things as unkind, counterproductive, condescending, ultimately harmful to a person who is truly struggling and deserves care and compassion but maybe not our “agreement”?
Just some stuff to think about.
If someone is struggling, they do not solve their struggle by forcing other people to lie. That's not a struggle. That's bullying and coercion.
men are men and women are women. am absolutely not going to be part of any bullshit that says otherwise. there is nothing to discuss.
The phrase "trans woman" doesn't seem so bad, if one interprets it to mean "fake woman".
Yes, I agree. I do not refer to myself as a "cis male". I refer to myself as a "normal male".
The term "normal" is very interesting. Today, NO ONE will say that anything is normal. In church, we do responsive reading. There is the italicized text, and there is the other text. I listen for the term used for this - "bold" (it's actually not bold), straight. The service leader wiggles and squirms to find a term that can be used. I use "regular" or "normal" for this text.
I used to use "she" when mentioning my ex-husband, who ideates himself in a female persona. I do not mind taking the extra few seconds to write that phrase or the "awkwardness" of it. I just read a comment under a youtube video on this topic, which I found plausible, tragic though it was. The commenter said he was 70 years old, had identified as "trans" for 50 years and was now detransitioning. It did not strike me as a troll comment. The field of psychology has abandoned, failed and abdicated in their evolution of the "dysphoric" diagnosis. We do not know if any of the "true trans" individuals mentioned here will detransition next week. This is how unstable the entire concept is. Blair White had a terrible childhood involving severe abuse, and only "looks female" because of painful "facial feminization." I have a few trans widows contacting me through my channel every week, and husbands society believes are "the nice ones," often willfully, with a therapist's approval behave destructively towards their loved ones. Ute Heggen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKDKaOt6vvg
There are many good points here, and in most of the original essays. There is an unbearable social tension we are faced with, and any defense of using preferred pronouns must, for good or ill, rest on “be kind.” Who doesn’t want to be kind? Who doesn’t modify language and behavior to communicate effectively, to connect with others? Our language changes depending on who we are speaking with and who we are speaking about. My atheist friend who used to be in a religious cult quotes Bible verses to make philosophical points about ethics to his evangelical Christian friend. So: Colin and others would not use “preferred pronouns” when writing about a rapist. No “her penis” for obvious offensive types, or for AGP fetishists who just want to invade women’s spaces. That’s at least a good line to draw.
The problem comes with the lovely classical pianist Barbara mentions who is a trans identified male and presents convincingly as female. This person just wants to live a productive life doing (insert pronoun) thing. This is why the tension is unbearable and unresolvable for those of us opposed to gender ideology. I would instinctively rather call the pianist “she,” and it feels awkward as well as rude to use male pronouns.
But Kara and the hardliners are right on one level and have found the only way to resolve it. Referring to the pianist as a “he” cannot but help make a subtle shift in my mind when thinking about that person. I don’t believe it’s all about sexist stereotypes, either. The differences between “he” and “she” in humans are many. I have found that when I have tried calling trans identified people by their preferred pronouns (when talking about them), even when speaking about very nice people who agree with me, it messes with my grounding in reality. Pronouns ARE rohypnol, and it matters beyond talking about rapists and violent men. I think differently about the wonderful Corrina Cohn when I call him “she” than when I call him “he” when talking about him. He is the same writer, the same brilliant thinker, but it somehow matters. It is wonderful that Corrina has made it clear he is cool with either pronouns. Try saying that sentence with a “she” and see if it doesn’t affect you.
But I still do not personally have a hardline resolution for this issue. Especially with trans identified females who really look like dudes and are people I respect or care for.
The key point of the "pronoun idiocy" is that it requires enforcement. After all, most of the time that a pronoun is used, the person being referred to is not present.
I have coined the term "pronarc" for the pronoun enforcers. When there are pronoun misuses, the pronarc is there to enforce the coercion involved in pronoun specification.
So, just remember, DON'T BE A PRONARC.